Mystery Friday Foto #47 Solved: A 1930s English automobile ID plate made for the son of William K. Vanderbilt, Jr.
Paul Rubery, Director of Curatorial Affairs at the Suffolk County Vanderbilt Museum, challenged you to identify this weekend's Mystery Foto.
The Vanderbilt Museum discovered this brass automobile plate (approximately 2"x 2") in their archives and needs your assistance to identify it.
W.K. Vanderbilt, Jr.
Registration GC3661
Chassis L.R. 2788
Engine H.M.2853
Answers to the Mystery Foto questions:
Identify:
- The plate, its purpose and the person who owned it.
As described by Ariejan Bos of The Netherlands, the plate was issued by the City Council of London between 1929 and March 1930.
Based on the date, the ID plate was likely owned by William K. Vanderbilt III, the son of William K. Vanderbilt , Jr. As noted by my favorite co-author Al Velocci, when Willie K.'s father died in 1920, Willie K. went by the name William K. Vanderbilt and his son became William. K. Vanderbilt Jr. Sadly, Willie K's son died in an automobile accident in November 1933. In the 1933 articles concerning the crash, he was referred to as William K. Vanderbilt Jr.
- The automobile associated with the plate including manufacturer, year, model and coachbuilder. Hint: The automobile is currently not listed on the website.
From vintagebentleys.org:
The ID plate likely was made for the 1930 Bentley by Gurney Nutting is a Weyman Sportsman's Coupe built to special order for Lieutenant Commander Glen Kidston to drive in the 1930 Monte Carlo Rallye and other adventures.
Kidston was one of the famed 'Bentley Boys' having co-driven the Works team car with Woolf Barnato to 2nd place for Bentley at LeMans in 1929 and winning in 1930, again with co-driver Barnato.
With the introduction of the Speed Six, the company went one stage further in providing customers with a serious contender for motor sports events. The main difference to the standard model was the fitting of twin carburetors. Usually the Bentley Speed Six was built with wheel bases of 138 inches. There are also a small number of Speed Sixes with a wheelbase of 152 1/2 inches. A change of the front springs and depending on the redesign of the front axle fixing, led to the abandonment of the version with the 138 inch wheelbase. Only the 140 inch variant remaining. For participation in the 24 hour race at Le Mans one chassis was built with a wheelbase of 132 inches."
Relevant links: Conceptcarz.com
- The original owner
Lieutenant Commander Glen Kidston to drive in the 1930 Monte Carlo Rallye.
- The current owner
The 1930 Bentley GC3661 is currently in the automobile collection of Friedhelm Loh of Germany.
How were you able to find the answers to the Mystery Foto?
As suggested by Ariejan Bos, the Mystery Foto could be partially solved by doing a Google search on "GC3661".
Comments (3)
Congrats to Ariejan Bos and Steve Lucas for linking the ID plate to the 1930 Bentley by Gurney Nutting.
Kudos to Al Velocci for noting that William K. Vanderbilt, Jr. in the early 1930 was likely referring to the son of Willie K.
Enjoy!
Howard Kroplick
Close-Ups
The 1930 Bentley
As seen in 1930
As seen at the 2009 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
The 1993 Death of William K. Vanderbilt III
"Vanderbilt's Body on Train", Brooklyn Daily Eagle, November 16, 1933
Note the caption "William K. Vanderbilt, Jr."
Note: The crashed car appears to be a Bentley but does not match the Mystery Foto auto.
Ariejan Bos:
"There are few differences in the cars: in the wrecked car the front fender has a different shape and the running board is continuous with the front fender. Also the two sets of louvres in hood seem to be vertical instead of inclined. However if you check other Speed Six Bentleys of the same year, they fit remarkably well e.g. like the attached Bentley bodied by Mulliner: similar style front fender, continuous with the running board, and two sets of vertical louvres. The number of louvres on the wrecked car is difficult to estimate exactly, but seems to be in accordance with the attached photo. And the car has of course right hand steering, which fits with English origin. So Bentley seems a good option, but not the Gurney Nutting Weyman coupé."
Comments
No clue. Looks like an early old-style Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) plate, still riveted onto automobiles today, to identify automobiles and help deter against auto theft.
Likely original owner here was Willie K.
Possibly Garden City registered vehicle with license plate No. 3661.
Looking forward towards this mystery’s answers
Well here goes with a couple of educated guesses and a wild guess or two. The registration, chassis, and engine numbers belong to a 1930 Bentley 6.5 litre Speed Six Weyman Sportsman’s Coupe built by Gurney Nutting coachbuilders. Winner of the 1930 Monte Carlo Rallye, the original owner was Glen Kidston. Current owner might be his nephew, Simon Kidston. Found most of that info by spending way too much time on internet searches but was unable to determine the Willie K. connection or the plate’s purpose. Looking forward to the answer.
From Ariejan Bos:
This is an interesting one. I immediately realized that this was an English registration. It was issued by the City Council of London between December 1929 and March 1930. That’s far beyond my territory of car knowledge, so I had to use a different approach. I googled chassis and engine number and to my surprise this site surfaced:
http://www.vintagebentleys.org/carpages/gc3661.php
“This 1930 Bentley by Gurney Nutting is a Weyman Sportsman’s Coupe built to special order for Lieutenant Commander Glen Kidston to drive in the 1930 Monte Carlo Rallye and other adventures.
Kidston was one of the famed ‘Bentley Boys’ having co-driven the Works team car with Woolf Barnato to 2nd place for Bentley at LeMans in 1929 and winning in 1930, again with co-driver Barnato.
With the introduction of the Speed Six, the company went one stage further in providing customers with a serious contender for motor sports events. The main difference to the standard model was the fitting of twin carburettors. Usually the Bentley Speed Six was built with wheel bases of 138 inches. There are also a small number of Speed Sixes with a wheelbase of 152 1/2 inches. A change of the front springs and depending on the redesign of the front axle fixing, led to the abandonment of the version with the 138 inch wheelbase. Only the 140 inch variant remaining. For participation in the 24 hour race at Le Mans one chassis was built with a wheelbase of 132 inches.”
Year: 1930
Make: Bentley
Model: Speed Six Weyman Sportsman Coupe
Engine Location: Front
Drive Type: Rear Wheel
Production Years for Series: 1928 - 1930
Coach Work: Gurney Nutting
Weight: 4700 lbs | 2131.9 kg
This will satisfy you to completion, I suppose. Certainly a car belonging to Vanderbilt standards!
Best wishes,
Ariejan
Amazing photos of the mystery car and its history. Great work! Did the accident occur in South Carolina? Sad story in 1933.
Howard, I always thought a Coupe had a fixed steel roof. The vehicle associated with William K. Vanderbilt Jr. death appears to have been a Roadster. My speculation on the whole scenario is this. The Bentley with registration # GC 3661 was originally purchased by William K. Vanderbilt Jr. ( He was living in London at the time.) The vehicle involved in the crash was that vehicle. The vehicle was then disposed of by his father who kept the registration plate in memory of his son.
Al,
But the Chassis and Engine serial numbers match the Bentley that still exists today. Registration plate numbers can be put on another car, but chassis and engine numbers cannot.
I think there may be 2 Bentleys that Jr. owned. When he died Willie K saved the plate from his second Bentley that was not wrecked and still exists today. Just my guess.
Greg, How about this possibility. The Bentley in the 1930 Monte-Carlo Rallye, GC 3661, was a “works” automobile. That is… it was not purchased by Kidston but he was hired by Bentley Motors to drive it in the Rallye. Some time after that event the vehicle was acquired by Vanderbilt Jr. and thats how his name got on the I. D. plate.
Al,
Yes, and let’s assume Willie K lll got that particular car that way, brass plate solved. It still does not not match the Bentley from the newspaper photo for his death. Hence, he was a Bentley enthusiast and maybe had more than one, or two.
Speculating again, I think the Vanderbilts never owned variants of any brand, but only the best in its class. This is a tricky puzzle to solve….
read your article it is very interesting for me. I hope I will find more articles in the future.