Vanderbilt Cup Races

Ran over my allotted three attachments; here are the other two Amityville quad excerpts - ‘69 and (20)16.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

John, this should probably be on a separate post or private but here are the ‘47, ‘54, ‘69. and (20)16 topo maps of roughly the same area, but starting with a larger ‘47 to show the “MOTOR PARKWAY {ABANDONED}” callout.  They show a steady degradation of the depiction of that mysterious northern extension of Bethpage SP from a full, paved, two-lane highway to zero.  AHA!  Wikipedia: “Moses proposed extending the Bethpage in both directions, south to Merrick Road via Massapequa State Park and north to Caumsett State Park, via an extended Bethpage and the new Caumsett State Parkway, respectively. Both proposals were not constructed; however, bike paths leading away from both directions of the parkway have been constructed or are under construction. Several scaled-back proposals to extend the Bethpage north have been proposed, including an extension to NY 25A in Cold Spring Harbor and another to NY 135 (the Seaford–Oyster Bay Expressway) in Bethpage.”  Howzat for service, eh?  At least this diatribe MENTIONS the LIMP!  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Great historic photos as it was. These shall come in handy someday with further findings of the historic roadway. Thank you Howard for preserving these gems.

From Malverne Treasure #5: Survey of "Toll Box" and Entrance/Exit Lanes at Rocky Hill Road (April 1914)

I have been looking for pre-WW2 pictures of Norcross Avenue/135 for a very long time and aside from the info available here, it has not been a successful endeavor.  Since there seems to be some uncertainty when it comes to old maps and aerials, allow me to add to it. In both the 1950 aerial and the Amityville map, there appears to be a road continuing north into the park at the end of the Bethpage Parkway traffic circle that to the best of my knowledge, never existed.  I know there were plans to maybe extend the Bethpage parkway at one time but I always thought there wasn’t anything completed.  Anyone know the story behind this?  I know it’s a bit off topic but I figure if anyone would know, it’d be you guys.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

You guys are great. This site and everything related to LI History are great. I’m not “scolding” anyone. This is the type of thing you sit down for a few brews with and discuss and that is my vibe here. You guys are just all stubborn and wrong!! JOKING!!!

It will be my life mission to prove this. There has to be proof out there. It will be found one day.

Mayan ruins location is the other spot, I’m not at all convinced those were bridge side walls, I think there were just walls. Another day!!!

I am curious—- HOWARD??? You haven’t chimed in!!! What is your opinion???

Finally, what is the record for most comments on a post? This might be in the running!??

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

That red 1899 Loco Steamer is in immaculate condition for a 120 year old car. Fantastic!

From Mystery Foto #32 Solved: Willie K. Going for an Early Ride in his 1899 Locomobile Runabout

Dave - that’s an excellent idea of obtaining photos of the SOB construction during the demolition phase. I’m hoping they exist and guessing they’re located deep within the Dept of Highways, Dept of Public Works, or a historic photo website/museum if any exists. I believe those photos if found, one won’t be comparing the old LIMP vs the new highway. I’ve seen these highway crews sweep the entire area clean first, then grade before applying any new concrete. The new RoW almost always takes a different shape and is larger than the previous one. The archived photos, if they exist, will be limited to comparing the LIMP’s former location against landmarks instead. But what a neat group of photos they’d be to add to the collection.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Maybe his 1st of many autos, he’s 21 yrs old here.

From Mystery Foto #32 Solved: Willie K. Going for an Early Ride in his 1899 Locomobile Runabout

Dave - I’m not trying to shock anyone, and only trying to reveal the true history of the Motor Pkwy, as it lays in ruins in front of us to solve. FYI, my worst fear is to broadcast inaccurate data to infinite viewers online. This could be very damaging. I would not post anything unless there was credible evidence. I cannot connect the excessive debris findings in the west to anything original Motor Pkwy. Please submit further information here so we can all agree to your findings. I hope you prove me wrong. My only goal is to seek the truth of this 100 year old roadway.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Dave - Congratulations, you win for typing the longest comment ever since this website launched. Most of us are “on the ground guys” too. We’re not just in our swivel chairs staring at the computer and disagreeing with everything you present. I’m no satellite expert either, but I have NO DOUBT that our mappers here would correct an imagery error if NECESSARY. Those old aerials you don’t care for are perfectly legit. We’re seeing what these airmen captured, I’d shake all their hands for what they did.

I’m ALWAYS on the lookout for images that may be unknown concerning the LIMP, and Howard will be the first one to know if I do. I don’t search for images to prove others right or wrong, I’m not a bully.I enjoy it, and look forward to sharing with others.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

We’re out synch, here.  Dave, you never answered my question about concrete underlaying your asphalt, without which it just isn’t LIMP paving.  Similarly, your argument about those posts simply doesn’t hold water; no other LIMP posts are buried upside-down!  There is third weird set of posts immediately south of the Clody bridge in Old Bethpage Village Restoration; see the 06 Jan 2006 picture <http://sbiii.com/limppix/obvr/pmmpob21.jpg> if you’re interested - it’s L - 21S on my main Exploration Page <http://sbiii.com/limpxplr.html#obvr12o5>.  Yes, we’re a tough bunch - but only because you may well be beating a dead horse.  Sorry.  We all love you two, though; keep on trackin’!  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Frank, I don’t seem to have a good copy of the 1943 Amityville topo but here’s an excerpt of the 1947 version, basically identical, with ref. data, plus a blow-up of the exact area.  The double-dashed line is marked “(ABANDONED)” and on the full map as “MOTOR PARKWAY (ABANDONED)”.  No two ways about it, now; again assuming one believes in the USGS map or the military version from which it was taken.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Welcome Frank! I was waiting for your input! I thought you were going to shock us with some indisputable cartography! 

CLOSING ARGUMENT:

*There are LIMP road fragments everywhere on the west side. Hundreds of pieces.
*When you walk this area west of 135, there are sections where you can see the tree-line of the former path. Why else would this be here?
*Posts are there - nobody has disputed in the past that these were LIMP posts. I realize they are different types of posts here but do you really think someone just randomly decided to find posts, install posts in this location so close to the LIMP with no other significance whatsoever, have them look exactly like LIMP posts but they aren’t? I’m not buying it. Not all LIMP posts have holes in them. There are several different types of posts.
*We dug up in tact road. This is not asphalt debris. This is in place road. What else could this be? The fact that water is funneled into this zone from Caroline Street means nothing. There are many locations on the LIMP that are now sumps, etc. It also seems possible that Caroline St could have been extended eastward to get closer to the LIMP then it was in earlier maps.
*Aerials have been proven to be off in the past. I don’t make a point to investigate each location but it was clearly brought to my attention in the Sigsbee Ave location in Mineola. I took a picture STANDING on the actual LIMP, and compared that with Frank/Wayne’s aerial maps, and it was off by 30-40 feet. This location is also an example of a huge slope on the side of the LIMP. See attached pic. Orange line is actual LIMP. Blue line is from aerial maps.
*People have come forward in past posts, people who lived through the construction of 135 and prior to 135 confirming the LIMP was on the west side. Nobody has come out in this post, but someone has to have a picture of LIMP prior to 135!
*Sam and I have explored the east side of 135 and found NOTHING. On the west side there are fragments everywhere. Were those building 135 instructed to bring all debris to the west side? Makes no sense.

I’m an “on the ground” guy. It’s amazing to have all the mapping information, aerials, etc. It is easier now to explore then it ever has been in history because of these advances, but sometimes ground exploration is necessary, and if there is a discrepancy of map vs ground, how can you argue with what you find in tact on site? I’m open to discussion if someone finds things on the ground to dispute our findings, but I’m not interested in computer aerials or maps from 80 years ago here, those can be off! Find an aerial of 135 under construction with the LIMP still in place! That would be wonderful. Someone has to have old pics! There has to be an older Bethpage resident that can answer this question with zero hesitation! The absolute proof exists somewhere but for now I have seen enough to believe the LIMP is on the west side of 135, but I will continue to make it my mission to prove to all one day! I thought perhaps this in place asphalt would do that for everyone, but you are a tough bunch!!!

We the jury find the evidence presented above to be convincing. We side with Sam and Dave until further evidence is presented! The LIMP was WEST of 135!

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Close enough, Frank.  What’s a half million between friends!

From The Expansion of Union Turnpike and the Relocation of the Motor Parkway East of Winchester Boulevard

Sam - Thanks, the 1943 USGS Topo still shows old Central Ave before the introduction of the 135 SOB. There is a dotted line veering northwest from the Powell Ave/LIMP jct that follows Dave’s theory. This is likely elevation change reference points (topography map) but It’s open for discussion. Anyone? This map should suffice but standby on those 1974 Land Survey aerials.
I stand firm on this map and other aerials already submitted but those findings are always open for discussion as well. Attached is a zoom of the suggested LIMP’s center line vs the shoulder solid line in the SOB southbound’s left lane. This is as close as I can get it.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Ooh; look!  On that 1943 Amityville Quad above, there’s the old pre-I135/SOB alignment of Central Ave.!  Here’s a blow-up and a matching (sort of) current aerial with today’s Thorne Dr.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Mystery Foto # 32… The automobile shown is a 1900 Locomobile Runabout. Steam powered, of course.
Later Locomobile would make I.C. engine powered cars, as we all know.
I don’t have answers to the other questions. My research struck out on those topics.

From Mystery Foto #32 Solved: Willie K. Going for an Early Ride in his 1899 Locomobile Runabout

Found it!  On my Nassau County Nomination Maps Continuation Page 1, <http://sbiii.com/limpmap1.html>, 8.  Amityville Quad (1943) - Bethpage to Botto Farm gate/Bethpage State Park, is incontovertible proof (assuming one accepts the USGS Topo Maps) of the RoW in question (pertinent excerpt attached).  I also found my Nassau County GIS Land Survey aerials from 1974 but that will take some work to present here - any interest?  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Eagle-eyed Sam - Never noticed it before but Yes, definitely a police turnaround and complete, with “NO U-turn” signs posted in both directions.

Mark - Agreed! No holes because of upside down installation. Not the work of Motor Parkway Inc.. This multi-post phenomenon occurred sometime after. When? The world may never know…....

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

The Y job was a look into the future Buick styling slated for production in 1942. At the time Harlow Curtice gave Harley lots of freedom at the Buick Styling Studio.

From Audrain Exhibit Concept Car #1: The 1938 Buick Y-Job: The First Concept Car