Vanderbilt Cup Races

A word of caution, here.  Much as I appreciate the Hagstrom’s (and similar) images, and I use(d) my collection extensively, as you can see on my site, we can not (MUST not) use them for accurate locations; they are general representations, only.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Art - it almost looks like Caroline St has been extended a little bit further eastward since your early maps. Look at new maps, it seems like Caroline Street goes a bit further east now then it did. Maybe they added houses to the block since then?

SBIII—other then the E. Williston Ave (Wheatley golf course) location you speak of, no other posts have been picked up and placed in new spots like that. And somebody there probably did have historical perspective there as the LIMP went over the road pretty much at that location where they placed them.

The location of these posts do not block any access point. I’ve checked that a several times. See attached pic. You can see the backyard of the house is there. It is not the end of the street or any kind of path, they definitely do not block any sort of access of any kind. I brought Howard there one time to see exactly that! The posts are there. I really don’t think someone just picked them all up and planted them there for no reason. And couple that with the fact that we just dug up the IN TACT pavement perfectly in line with where the posts would then be…..how does that make sense????

John—-curve #2 was there, I just think the “starting point” of the curve was more westward, so when it came back it came back to this point. The aerials are off in this location.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

I’m still a bit confused.  What you’re presuming to be the motor parkway is in the 1950 picture next to the actual parkway.  Also, if the parkway goes where you claim it does, deadman’s curve #2 would not exist.  I’m not sure what you dug up but i’m not sure how it could be LIMP remnants.  Maybe discarded pieces of asphalt from 135 construction? Also, the house withe shed in the pictures above was built in 1929. Would a house have been built in such close proximity to the parkway?

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Bingo, Dave; thanks.  AH-HA, indeed!  I couldn’t make out the Powell/Plainview off-ramp in the video but the spot seems to be where the green dot is on Frank’s map.  That cluster of posts is NOT original; they were probably relocated there to block an informal access, much as those on the north side of East Williston Avenue across the south end of the RoW on the Wheatley Hills Golf Club were (what few are left standing).  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Here’s my 2007 website posting which gives a good idea of the location. 
https://www.freewebs.com/limparkway/bethpagesob.htm

Adding to the discussion:  the attached maps from 1939 and 1946 show Caroline Street as E. 4th Street and other named streets as number streets.  My Hagstrom from early 1950s show the new names.  And the 1946 map shows the area in question belonging to J. Botto.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

SBIII—- when you watch the video you get complete perspective of exactly where we are. We are just east of the end of Caroline Street. See the map. The mysterious “Caroline Street posts” are just north of us as you also see in the video. Their placement makes a lot more sense now! They are right alongside the LIMP, right where they should be!

This is an AH-HA moment - indisputable proof.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Dave, please tell us EXACTLY where you dug.  Ideally, locate it on an aerial or satellite view - or tie it in as closely as possible to a nearby cross-street and house number.  If you have the ability, give us GPS coordinates.  Then we can have a fighting chance to explain what you found.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

The video does not show remnants / debris / pieces of roadway. There is plenty of that on the west side but that was not the point of the video.

The video shows a section of IN TACT ROADWAY THAT WE DUG UP. Someone please explain to me——WHAT IS THIS if it’s not the LIMP??

The evidence is overwhelming! The only evidence for not believing this is aerials, which are not perfectly accurate at all. As I sited above: the Sigsbee Ave location in Albertson is 100% proven to be incorrect, by about 30 feet. Aerial angles can change and shift. You’ll be in the vicinity but not perfect! You just simply cannot argue with what you find on the ground still there and IN TACT! Someone please tell me what this is if it’s not LIMP.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Alice Kasten
Howard - Just read the Newsday article about your “retirement”. It’s a very sad day for the Town - they will surely miss you! I cannot imagine your being any less busy! Best of luck - Alice (who had to move to Connecticut to retire)

From Newsday: Ready for HIS STORY

Howard, That old Shed/Play House belongs to the Merin Family, they are my next Door Neighbors; I live on Norcross Ave in Bethpage and some of what Sam & Dave saw I have seen some of it many times in the past. That old Blue Car that sits just below my Garage & backyard and so does the Playhouse/ Shed I see that every day when I go out in my backyard. I remember several years ago mentioning to you that I saw what might be old Remnants of the Motor Parkway & sending you a few pictures I took 1 day while I was walking my Dog back behind my house on Norcross Ave where Sam &  Dave walked but I never heard back from you about them other than you would check it out it when you got a chance, unfortunately what I sent by email was on my old computer which I do not have anymore (the hard drive went on it so every thing was lost from back then)  Now I see that Sam & Dave have found more pieces & I am now even more curious about that Section of the Motor Parkway that you found down behind my house and block along the LPA/PSEG Right away near Route 135 which runs behind my house. I know mentioned that the Motor Parkway follows the LPA/PSEG Right away and that does run behind my Norcross Ave House in Bethpage.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

You can see with your own eyes destruction of LIMP RoW (in Bethpage State Park in 2006) at <http://sbiii.com/limpxpl2.html#bspatroc> and the debris pushed aside and piled up at <http://sbiii.com/limpxpl3.html#bspevdnc>.  Ditto at the 1984 LIRR Main Line and Oyster Bay Branch bridge removals via Ron Ridolph’s pix at <http://sbiii.com/limpbrdg.html#rrbridgs>.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Lauren Lester
Amazing work!!

Bruce Adams
Great to see your many accomplishments as Town Historian were recognized and appreciated.

Andy Fuhrman
Well done Howard! Every community should have someone like you!

Charpal
Saw the Newsday article   Thanx for the time you gave the town

From Newsday: Ready for HIS STORY

Paul, Let me add some additional information that might explain the lack of road fragments on the east side of the SOB. On construction sites such as these where debris removal is necessary, the material being taken off the job site is usually first gathered up by heavy earth moving equipment and accumulated in large piles before being hauled away. My guess is the material to be removed was piled up west of today’s SOB. When the desired grade level has been reached, the area is then back dragged resulting in a debris free work zone Back dragging from east to west would account for the lack of any debris on the east side of the SOB. What remnants that have showed up from time to time I believe are from from the remains of one of these piles.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Yes Dave, the photo of the Buick body shell in 2017 about the time I went down there, still there in recent visit?

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Howard, saw this on your newsletter Sun. morning at 4 AM, checked the Audrain website, impressive. Except for a vague mention of a place in R.I. from a neighbor, the auto maven never heard of this place? After breakfast, bee line up to Newport. Nice size building but inside very modest first floor exhibition area, second floor, offices. Nice wall display including in the VCR area, I briefly acting as a guide with this VCR thing with some other visitors, knowing more than the official guides, how wonderful your free website, and your life, “take out cellphone camera and take a snapshot of this VCR business card with Black Beast. Worth the stop by only if spending quality time in beautiful Newport.

From Old 16 Locomobile on Display at the Audrain Automobile Museum in Newport, Rhode Island

I should have added that the well-worn path along the west side of the SOB, convincing though it be, and Howard, Al, and I went up and down there several times ‘way back, is NOT the LIMP.  There might well be LIMP-like traces at the western end of the two bridges and just north of Central but NOT between Revere and Powell, except at the bridge site.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

My final points -
1.  I agree that the LIMP for the most part was west of the SOB but MAY also have been in places east.
2.  Lots of construction/demolition occurs over 100+ years so I’m not always sure what I find is actually LIMP roadway or hasn’t been moved for demolition purposes.  Educated guesses but I’ve been corrected a few times so maybe I’m a bit more hesitant these days.

For example by the Wheatley Hills golf course I would say have been moved so placement of objects are just one more piece of the puzzle.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Last February

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Aerials can be off. The angle from which they are taken in some areas often change. I don’t study this stuff but I recall when I took the pictures of the LIMP in Albertson just south of Sigsbee Ave - both LIMP maps are incorrect and about 30 feet off southward in this location.

Nobody is addressing the REAL point here…..I’ve been convinced for a while now that the ROW ran/runs WEST of 135. There have been those that have come forward with recollections of this being the case. The Caroline Street posts made no sense being where they are if you believe the LIMP was in fact on 135 at this point.

But my entire point is…..it was west of 135. And nobody has said anything about WHAT WE UNCOVERED! How can you dispute this? We dug this up! What else can it be??? It’s one thing to map things out from aerial footage, but what we dug up is in place to this day! And it’s right next to the Caroline Street posts. It makes total sense!

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

We are looking approximately east in Roslyn at the intersection of Mineola Avenue (going off to the right) and Old Northern Blvd. going down the hill to the left. The current address is #1 Mineola Avenue, site of the Roslyn Village Veterinarian. This was part of the 1906 Vanderbilt Cup Race course.

From Mystery Foto #31 Solved: Then & Now: A Roslyn Curve on the 1906 Vanderbilt Cup Race Course