Vanderbilt Cup Races

Welcome Frank! I was waiting for your input! I thought you were going to shock us with some indisputable cartography! 

CLOSING ARGUMENT:

*There are LIMP road fragments everywhere on the west side. Hundreds of pieces.
*When you walk this area west of 135, there are sections where you can see the tree-line of the former path. Why else would this be here?
*Posts are there - nobody has disputed in the past that these were LIMP posts. I realize they are different types of posts here but do you really think someone just randomly decided to find posts, install posts in this location so close to the LIMP with no other significance whatsoever, have them look exactly like LIMP posts but they aren’t? I’m not buying it. Not all LIMP posts have holes in them. There are several different types of posts.
*We dug up in tact road. This is not asphalt debris. This is in place road. What else could this be? The fact that water is funneled into this zone from Caroline Street means nothing. There are many locations on the LIMP that are now sumps, etc. It also seems possible that Caroline St could have been extended eastward to get closer to the LIMP then it was in earlier maps.
*Aerials have been proven to be off in the past. I don’t make a point to investigate each location but it was clearly brought to my attention in the Sigsbee Ave location in Mineola. I took a picture STANDING on the actual LIMP, and compared that with Frank/Wayne’s aerial maps, and it was off by 30-40 feet. This location is also an example of a huge slope on the side of the LIMP. See attached pic. Orange line is actual LIMP. Blue line is from aerial maps.
*People have come forward in past posts, people who lived through the construction of 135 and prior to 135 confirming the LIMP was on the west side. Nobody has come out in this post, but someone has to have a picture of LIMP prior to 135!
*Sam and I have explored the east side of 135 and found NOTHING. On the west side there are fragments everywhere. Were those building 135 instructed to bring all debris to the west side? Makes no sense.

I’m an “on the ground” guy. It’s amazing to have all the mapping information, aerials, etc. It is easier now to explore then it ever has been in history because of these advances, but sometimes ground exploration is necessary, and if there is a discrepancy of map vs ground, how can you argue with what you find in tact on site? I’m open to discussion if someone finds things on the ground to dispute our findings, but I’m not interested in computer aerials or maps from 80 years ago here, those can be off! Find an aerial of 135 under construction with the LIMP still in place! That would be wonderful. Someone has to have old pics! There has to be an older Bethpage resident that can answer this question with zero hesitation! The absolute proof exists somewhere but for now I have seen enough to believe the LIMP is on the west side of 135, but I will continue to make it my mission to prove to all one day! I thought perhaps this in place asphalt would do that for everyone, but you are a tough bunch!!!

We the jury find the evidence presented above to be convincing. We side with Sam and Dave until further evidence is presented! The LIMP was WEST of 135!

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Close enough, Frank.  What’s a half million between friends!

From The Expansion of Union Turnpike and the Relocation of the Motor Parkway East of Winchester Boulevard

Sam - Thanks, the 1943 USGS Topo still shows old Central Ave before the introduction of the 135 SOB. There is a dotted line veering northwest from the Powell Ave/LIMP jct that follows Dave’s theory. This is likely elevation change reference points (topography map) but It’s open for discussion. Anyone? This map should suffice but standby on those 1974 Land Survey aerials.
I stand firm on this map and other aerials already submitted but those findings are always open for discussion as well. Attached is a zoom of the suggested LIMP’s center line vs the shoulder solid line in the SOB southbound’s left lane. This is as close as I can get it.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Ooh; look!  On that 1943 Amityville Quad above, there’s the old pre-I135/SOB alignment of Central Ave.!  Here’s a blow-up and a matching (sort of) current aerial with today’s Thorne Dr.  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Mystery Foto # 32… The automobile shown is a 1900 Locomobile Runabout. Steam powered, of course.
Later Locomobile would make I.C. engine powered cars, as we all know.
I don’t have answers to the other questions. My research struck out on those topics.

From Mystery Foto #32 Solved: Willie K. Going for an Early Ride in his 1899 Locomobile Runabout

Found it!  On my Nassau County Nomination Maps Continuation Page 1, <http://sbiii.com/limpmap1.html>, 8.  Amityville Quad (1943) - Bethpage to Botto Farm gate/Bethpage State Park, is incontovertible proof (assuming one accepts the USGS Topo Maps) of the RoW in question (pertinent excerpt attached).  I also found my Nassau County GIS Land Survey aerials from 1974 but that will take some work to present here - any interest?  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Eagle-eyed Sam - Never noticed it before but Yes, definitely a police turnaround and complete, with “NO U-turn” signs posted in both directions.

Mark - Agreed! No holes because of upside down installation. Not the work of Motor Parkway Inc.. This multi-post phenomenon occurred sometime after. When? The world may never know…....

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

The Y job was a look into the future Buick styling slated for production in 1942. At the time Harlow Curtice gave Harley lots of freedom at the Buick Styling Studio.

From Audrain Exhibit Concept Car #1: The 1938 Buick Y-Job: The First Concept Car

Sort of reminds me of the big Fleetwood-bodied ‘38 Buick convertible I turned down at $75 for a stodgy (but AGILE) ‘39 Chrysler Royal sedan <http://sbiii.com/b-uattwn/iiitoo/autopix/39chrnew.jpg> at $85 as my first car in late 1951 (Xgiving vacation).  “Only” ten bucks more for a year-newer car - WOW (ouch - in retrospect)!  Sharp ol’ eyes may spot the fender-mounted MG side-light-cum-turn-signal.  The nerdy kid - that’s me in Jan 1952.  Sam, III

From Audrain Exhibit Concept Car #1: The 1938 Buick Y-Job: The First Concept Car

Dave and all, those post are not from LIMP days, but from a later time, note the concrete is smooth not the rough appearance of original LIMP posts from weathering for over 100 years, and it has no holes for the wire cable fencing of them days. The large asphalt slab that you uncovered is just a large asphalt debris during the Rt.135 construction that was place there with soil covering it, they had the equipment to do it at the time.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

Jame Ryan
The Buick Y Job was at the 2016 Buick National show. Great car to see in person. The car was driven around the show field, that was cool to see. Thank’s for the article about the Newport Car museum, Jim

From Audrain Exhibit Concept Car #1: The 1938 Buick Y-Job: The First Concept Car

Let’s say Willie K.
circa 1900, will let others id the car
Since the museum is in Newport, how about one of the Vanderbilt’s mansions there - Marble Head?

From Mystery Foto #32 Solved: Willie K. Going for an Early Ride in his 1899 Locomobile Runabout

Convincing evidence that continues to grow with excess debris on the west side, and have considered possibilities for their presence there. But I’m sorry I am unable to tie the debris to anything original LIMP. Other findings paint a different picture.
The Caroline St. posts today are located approx 250 feet from the center of 135 (the suspected location of the 22 foot LIMP). That makes it well outside the 100 ft ROW. Has anyone noticed there is only one post installed right side up at Caroline (the most left, south), with its convex head on top? All the others are installed upside down. This is not the work of Motor Pkwy Inc., it would’ve never passed. And how is it possible to have the roadway on such hilly terrain? The slope was always there. The tree line in the old aerials is the top of the hill/slope before the steep descent down, and where the streets terminate because of the slope.
The path under the wires on the west side again is definitely convincing, but LIPA also needs to keep their RoW clear so to move their equipment for servicing the wires.   
Three small road fragments WERE found on the east side by Brian McCarthy and I a few years back. Photos of the remnants and their locations are below. They should still be there if anyone is interested. We inspected the entire area of the east curve (Deadman’s curve #2) with GPS, before losing the curve as it reentered into 135. This was all we found - 3 small pieces on the east and 2 larger pieces on the west, including a fully intact double-hole concrete post that was semi buried in the ground. We dug it out and stood it up against the fence behind the Sportime parking lot on Norcross (just SE of Nibbe’s cemetery). The post was very heavy and about 5ft in height. The location is on the pic below. We left those remnants there as well. Are these debris findings following a pattern - small or none on the east, and larger and more on the west? Regardless, my best guess was always - as some have mentioned here - the road construction debris was moved to the west, enabling some of the relocated materials to be reused/recycled as desired. I believe most or all of the debris found today was once used by LIMP, but their destruction/removal/relocation has nothing to do with their original location. 
I agree with Al and Brian S that Thorne Dr was once old Central Av - which traveled under the long bridge and crossed the RR tracks.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

$140,665.00 in 1932, I got $2,578,248.79. It seems it should have cost more, especially adding the new bridge and removing the old one

From The Expansion of Union Turnpike and the Relocation of the Motor Parkway East of Winchester Boulevard

1906 list of VCR entries and location.

From The Garages of the Vanderbilt Cup Races

Note the cost of rebuilding the Motor Parkway in the attached - anyone want to guess what today’s cost would be?  Answer in the next few days.

From The Expansion of Union Turnpike and the Relocation of the Motor Parkway East of Winchester Boulevard

Great stuff Howard. I’ve been waiting for this for some time. Thanks to Roy for saving these gems. It all matches up as suspected. Thank you to all!

From Malverne Treasure #4: Survey of the Meadowbrook Lodge in Westbury (January 1938)

Had no clue but made up an annotated satellite view before I saw Art’s above.  Sam, III

From Mystery Foto #31 Solved: Then & Now: A Roslyn Curve on the 1906 Vanderbilt Cup Race Course

Dave - did the asphalt paving have a coarse concrete aggregate underlay, per the attached sample at Deadman’s Curve?  LIMP paving was rolled aggregate with a concrete slurry poured into it and only got the asphalt later.  If not, it is NOT original LIMP paving.  All - I noticed that faint trace (highlit in red on the attached) on the long map above and see it is still there today, between the S/B and N/B lanes on I135/SOB; is that a police turnaround?  It wasn’t there ‘way back.  Whee; what a thread!  Sam, III

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2

A theory perhaps of The Caroline St Posts:  1926 map with the current street pattern, notice how they all dead end at the tree line. I pointed out the path that looks to be where the row of posts are. The parkway may have set these posts across the path seen to discourage the use of it since it leads to the roadway. Imagine planks or logs on one side and you have a barrier. Sure it didn’t totally stop usage of this path, but it was a quick/cheap fix. This path is still visible on the 1950 aerial above. I seen these posts up close & personal, too. These posts may have been set a 100 yrs ago.

I believe that Rte 135 was built over the LIMP ROW like Wayne & Frank’s maps show. And I totally agree with Al Velocci’s comment above explaining the road pieces/chunks that are found nearby. I can’t explain the flat exposed area of asphalt that Dave & Sam uncovered. Looks to be situated near the storm drain outlet pipe. Exposing more of it would be ideal, but attracting that kind of attention is unwise.

From Update: Sam & Dave’s “Excellent 2019 Vanderbilt Day”- #11 Bethpage #2