Vanderbilt Cup Races

From Kathy C:

“Watching you ( the fastest man in America ) be beaten by Henry Ford on the History Channel! What great fun! I know you use it in your talks but so cool to see it on the tube….You bring history alive & help all of us in the field by making history breathe & relevant… you give so many connections. My goal is linking history on many levels… You & the BB create wild links: socially politically economically culturally in an incredibly crafted machine & the roadways & races it traveled… what fantastic &  powerful links to offer in the study of history to reach wildly diverse interests!  “

From Film "The Black Beast in the Finale of "Men Who Built America"

What a nice story!  It will keep me in a good mood for the rest of the year.  Thanks!

Ken

From Cousins of Drivers Montague and Mortimer Roberts Reunited With the Help of VanderbiltCupRaces.com

That is great news,  good job!!!!

From Cousins of Drivers Montague and Mortimer Roberts Reunited With the Help of VanderbiltCupRaces.com

That looks like the Von Osterman house which was located near the north-west corner of the lake. Today the property is occupied by a beer & soda distributor at the south-east corner of Rosevale Ave. and Smithtown Ave. The M. G. Babcock Co. was one of many real estate development companies that promoted and sold land around the Lake Ronkonkoma area in the 1910’s and 1920’s. I don’t think the LIMP was ever officially called the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway although it obviously was referred to as such on the postcard and probably other publications as well.

From Mystery Foto #40 Solved:The Von Osterman Family House in Lake Ronkonkoma in 1910

MY computer is down,so I can’t research this one. I’m at the library doing this right know,this is a very interesting one too. Well good luck guys,it would take me too long here to do it.

From Mystery Foto #40 Solved:The Von Osterman Family House in Lake Ronkonkoma in 1910

Thanks for these fabulous photos Howard! I grew up no more than 1/4 mile from the site of this bridge. I can still remember in the 1960s seeing railroad ties from the Central Branch near where the bridge was located. My guess is that the bridge came down around 1949-1950.

From Long Island Motor Parkway Bridge Series #39: Newbridge Road Bridge in Hempstead Plains

Getting back to the mysery#39. Will you really know about that faded#5,your reasoning sounds very possible,were they the same car or not? there’s uncertainty there,this turned out to be a mind boggling mystery,whose going to come up with the true answer? Greg,Howard or even Ariejan Bos,go for it. You guys seem to know how to do it. It would be interesting for us all to know,don’t you think so? I would be

From Then & Now: The Proposed Fulton Avenue Entrance to the Motor Parkway in Hempstead (Part II)

Just to let you,I went to the presentation last nite, a lot of people showed up. What a collection of car photos he has,ones that I’ve seen at car shows or something else and others I didn’t and probably will never see One other thing,that library is the best I’ve seen,It’s huge,so many things going on,maybe you can see if you can book a presentation,you’ll like the accommodations I’ll tell you. I just thought I’d bring that up

From Then & Now: The Proposed Fulton Avenue Entrance to the Motor Parkway in Hempstead (Part II)

I have another possible theory about the faint #5 on the radiator. In the Lowell Trophy Race, in Massachusetts, on September 8, 1909, The ALCO was #5. In that race, the ALCO did not use the protective grill in front of the radiator and it appears to be the only race from what I see that the ALCO did not use the grill. The number was painted directly on the radiator itself unlike all others where the number was painted on the grill. The faded numeral seems to be the same size and similar font as the black 5 from the Lowell race in 1909.

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

From Ariejan Bos:

I must admit that I completely missed the American Grand Prize. After reading your comments I thought that maybe there was a second car. However the resemblance between the AGP car and the Indy mystery car is so strong, that they must be the same car. It puzzled me why this car would practice at Indy until I realized that Indianapolis was on the way between Elgin and Long Island (or the factory at Providence). They had been at Indy in July for the Cobe Trophy and passed there of course again after the Elgin race. On September 3 and 5, 1910 races were held at Indy and there was a nr. 10, Joe Dawson on Marmon. On the official Indy Alco photo you can spot the number 10 on a shield at the back of a car, comparable with Harroun’s number shield on his Marmon in 1911. I do not know how long in advance the starting positions for the Vanderbilt Cup race were known, but apparently already early September. In my opinion the frontal number was painted on the radiator protection shield, which is absent on the mystery photo. So it is my impression now, that they were at Indy early September on their way back to Long Island and were photographed there during the race weekend, just as guests, not as competitors. They were of course famous already after their first Vanderbilt Cup win.
Anyway, Howard, thank you as always for keeping us busy!

Regards,
Ariejan

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

Ted, good catch! Roy Jaffe’s presentation is at 7:00 PM at the Sachem Public Library in Holbrook

http://wwww.vanderbiltcupraces.com/events/details/presentation_automotive_styling_at_general_motors_plainview_thursday_august

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

I’m never on the computer this early in the day,but I had to this time,there’s just too much here and so informative. You and Greg didn’t give up on this one and certainly found alot that you didn’t know about. If there’s something to be found you always pull thru and find it and let us all know about it. The stuff you find is unbelievable. Now while I’m on here to change the subject is the presentation tonite at the Shelter Rock Library 165 Searingtown Road in Albertson? because it says Holbrook at the top. I’ll be back on about 4pm or give me a call and leave a message. Thanks alot Howard,I would really appreciate it

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

Greg, I am impressed. You have raised some great points. I have revised the post above based on your comments.

Logically, it makes sense that the Alco Black Beast may have been practicing for the Vanderbilt Cup Race on the Indy track in September 1910. It raced in Elgin, Indiana on August 27, 1910 (as #6). It also does not make sense that the racer would have the #18 on its hood in May 1911 since its prior race on November 12, 1910 it ran as #7.

My best guess is the official Alco photo used for the 1911 Indy 500 Race may have been taken while the car was practicing in September 1910. Accordingly, I now agree with your original answers to the Mystery Foto! Kudos!!!

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

Hay Greg we both got thrown off on that one didn’tt we? We almost had it

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

Further looking at the photos of the car from 1910 VCR and Indy…Are the car numbers removable panels between the hood straps and not the car itself? That would explain my confusion. It would have been easy to remove the protective radiator grill and quickly swap numbers on the hood while at Indy for photo ops.

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

I didn’t know about the brick and never payed attention to the grandstands at Indy. I also should have realized that it didn’t look like a race

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

I’m a little confused over something…
My guess for the date was based on the ALCO racing first in the Cobe Trophy Race, Indianapolis, Indiana, July 4, 1910, as car #27, and then as car #6 Elgin National Trophy Race, Elgin Road Race Course, Indiana, August 27, 1910.
I incorrectly thought that maybe they were still in Indianapolis in September to practice for the upcoming Vanderbilt Cup Race on October 1,1910 (with the number 18 on the car in preparation for the race)...

I noticed that faded 5 on the radiator also, and it threw me off a bit at first. (Maybe it could have been a radiator from another race car?) But that photo’s caption asks; “Did the Alco race bewteen October 1910 and May 1911?” and there’s where my confusion is, I didn’t assume the photo was practice for the 1911 Indy 500 because according to the Beast’s bio page on VCR, the ALCO raced as car #7 in the American Grand Prize, in Savannah, Georgia, on November 12, 1910. Wouldn’t the ‘remnant’ number left on the car from the previous race be a 7 and not the 18?

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

Howard,
    I spent much of my younger years (late 50’s - early/mid 60’s) riding my bicycle on the original dirt path from Massapequa Park to Bethpage Park with my neighborhood friends. We had to avoid many concealed traps left for us along the way in the Farmingdale area of the ride!
    The familiar paved pathway that exists today used to be a gravel police/fire road back then, too loose for us to pedal our bikes through. When I ride through there today I feel like I’m on a pedestrian superhighway!
    Thanks again for all your efforts regarding our Long Island history. I hope the Chrysler is coming along, and look forward to seeing you and John with the ALCO racer again in the future.

From Then & Now: The Bethpage Bikeway Section of the Motor Parkway in Old Bethpage

From Ariejan Bos:

It is obvious an Alco at Indianapolis (recognizable by the bricks and the grandstands). Probably we see the Alco before the Inaugural 500 Mile Indianapolis race, held in May 1911. The driver is of course Harry Grant. The mechanician is Frank H. Lee, who joined him in both Vanderbilt Cup races of 1909 and 1910. During the Elgin National Trophy in August 1911, Lee would drive an Alco himself, and Geo Babcock would join Grant (in his last race for Alco) as mechanician. The number 18 apparently is a remnant of the 1910 Vanderbilt Cup race, because the Alco wore number 19 during the Indy race.

The curious thing is that there is an official photo from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway circulating with the Alco wearing number 18 . This photo shows a kind of starting line up, is clearly shot at Indy (the bricks!), but it cannot be the main event because of the number18 (Eddy Hearne on Benz had this number)!?

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track

All I can get out of this is that It’s #18 and looks like Hempstead Plains by the way the grandstand looks. The race I think was in 1910 on Oct 1. As for the driver and mechanician,this I"m not sure of either Grant and Lee and I also think they won the race. I might of mixed it up with another race. Probably batting O aren’t I?

From Mystery Foto #39 Solved: The Alco Racer Practicing at the Indy 500 Track